A FB stream: "Violence in Schools is caused by a Lack of God in Schools".
*This is an actual conversation I wanted to save for posterity. I've used http://www.randomnames.com/ to change the names, since the OP had the image (and therefore the thread) posted as "Friends only".
Popped up in my Facebook stream, by a family member ("Patty"):
Weyrcat
I would like to refer you to the current threats of violence towards a girl named Jessica Ahlquist, who took her public school to court to uphold a Constitutional ruling that was being broken by the school. The threats of violence and words of pure hatred she receives are coming FROM CHRISTIANS WHO WANT GOD IN THAT SCHOOL. They've threatened her with beatings, claim GOD will RAPE her, and hope she dies a painful death. Schools are not the place to teach about God, Church is. School is the place to learn about history and math and science. Schools that have God in them do NOT TEACH those subjects. Keep God
in Church and OUT OF SCHOOLS.
http://morallowground.com/2012/01/28/atheist-teen-jessica-ahlquist-bombarded-with-death-rape-threats-over-cranston-high-school-west-prayer-banner-lawsuit/
Libby...
I am sorry, but if I recall correctly God was taken out of school some 40 years ago, and during that time the worst kids were doing was chewing gum..... within a decade of taking God out of schools, those students became adults and began burning bras, screaming for their 'freedoms', and causing riots across the nation. But, lets forget about the origin of country to begin with.
I am not though, for the record, affirming what those 'christians' are doing. There is no excuse for saying that God will rape her and praying she dies a painful death. however, I do agree, taking God out of schools, which had been there for a couple hundred of years, was a mistake and has changed the course of this country dramatically.
Alyssa...
@Patty, you are so right. @Weyrcat, the people who were threatening that girl, were obviously "not" Christians.
Weyrcat
"40 years ago" was 1972. The "bra burning", which didn't actually occur (they threw them in trash cans) happened in 1968. There were no riots over this "bra burning" thing. It was sensationalized by one reporter trying to liken it to the burning of draft cards.
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.asp
Also, the "bra burning" wasn't about rampant sexuality or freedoms et al. It was a protest over the 1968 Miss America beauty pageant. The women protesting held signs claiming "Let's judge ourselves as people" and rejected "beautification" objects such as high heels, cosmetics, girdles, etc. Surely a modest Christian woman, such as yourself, can agree with their motives. They wanted women to be WOMEN, not sexual objects paraded around in swimsuits on a stage.
Per "the origin of the country" I presume you mean this misconception that the "founding fathers" created a Christian nation. This comes from the fact that Puritans colonized the Eastern seaboard, seeking "regligious freedom" from the oppressive Church of England (who deemed their sect of Christianity a sin!) When the Constitution was drafted the word "God", "Jesus", "Creator", were (and are currently) NOT in it! *Excepting the date at the bottom, which was customarily written as "The Year of our Lord One thousand seven hundred and eighty seven" and was used both religiously and secularly. If the framers of the Constitution had been religious (and of a Christian religion) why would they put in that "[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"?
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#god
The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning ANY or NO religion may be practiced by the people and the law will not give religion to the people NOR keep it from them. This covered public schools, which is the place of education FOR ALL AMERICAN CHILDREN, not just children of Christian parents. Let's pretend we're England, who throughout history changed religions to match their ruler. Let's pretend Obama is Muslim. Now, the public schools YOU want God in will teach your children about Muhammad and Sharia and they will read from the Qu'ran during daily prayers. Still want God in school?
Forty years ago the country was neither "better" nor "worse" since we have NO real way to compare. We have better medicine, knowledge of science and health, life-saving technologies. PRIOR to 1970, in those "years before they took God out of school" you must remember we had HUGE periods where Blacks weren't considered human, the law looked the other way when men beat their wives (rampant as late as 1950s, bet they went to Church every Sunday too), and Japanese-Americans were held prisoner "just in case."
Before you try to use "history" to support your religious preference, read some history first.
@Alyssa, that's the problem, THEY ARE Christians. The bigger problem is that SCHOOL IS NOT CHRISTIAN. School is SECULAR. There are schools that have God in them, they're called Christian schools. People who want God in their child's school should send their child to a Christian school. Public schools are funded by the secular state and must REMAIN secular to ensure the privacy and freedoms of ALL the children present.
Patty ...
Okay, now that I have a minute to sit...never mind, baby cry!
Patty ...
Look Weyrcat. You got froggy and jumped on MY post.
You just ASSUMED that I am a Christian because of said post.
The facts as I see them is that NO ONE is teaching simple things like be kind, do not hate, do unto others, do not kill, do not steal, and honor your father and mother! IF these things were being taught, then Jessica A would NOT have been threatened in that manner. People did NOT used to shoot up schools, not that I know of. I would research it to be sure...but I don't have the time.
All I Do know, is that it would be nice if teachers had the latitude to give some guidance to direct our children to be nice to each other because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. All the major religions teach kindness. PERIOD
Alyssa...
@Jenna, anyone can call them selves a Christian. You have to live as one to actually be one, and those people have shown that they are obviously "Not" Christians.
Libby ...
lol you facebookers, This John Libby's hub, I have no Idea who would take the time to read all that, if you guys are going to try to argue and debate, try not to rant. writing longer post doesn't help you. Ok you tell me how many school shooting there have been since 1960-1998 and compare them to 1999-now, In America plz , no muslim countries I think they shoot one person per day for good measure. to keep the whole death to America thing going. And yeah We want GOD back at are schools. If you are going to have a good country then you need to go the the great sourse of good and that is GOD. All secular schools do is lead you to rejecting science and truth for insanity. Miramonte Elemetary school in L.A., for one example, failing schools over the decades, passing students just to get them out of there, gangs running amonk in school. Yes I would like GOD to be there thought there, prayed to there and every day be a reminder that we should strive for excellence. Beyound that, I just get from your post you been hurt somehow and the issue of GOD or ppl would promte GOD is touching that nerve. I hope you find some healing, and look to GOD to find it. Ok well I think I have fullfilled my Facebook of the year. lol, You guys have fun, oh yeah Miriam's at the store I'm sure she'll give you a responce later.
Weyrcat
I did presume you to be Christian, based on said image, however I fail to see how that matters. My response post illustrates "God" should not be in schools at all. If J.A. had petitioned at Muslim banner to be removed and the Muslim students upjumpedtheboogie on her I'd be just as disgusted, and it would still be a good opposition to the idea that there is violence in school because God is not.
Presuming you are Christian, based on said image, and because you are blood and I like to think I take care not to emotionally injure my kin, felt I was approaching the subject in deference to your presumed religion. Otherwise I may have just posted Spaghetti Monster rhetoric (YAY! PIRATES!)
Those ethics you've posted ARE instilled in students by teachers, and should also be by parents. Those aren't religious teachings, but basic humanity teachings. As a hopeful science teacher I know that teachers deliver those messages every day by living them (and by things as simple as "Don't take Johnny's pencil!" etc). School violence has unfortunately always occurred, only the methods and motives change throughout history, AND how well they are documented. And you're right, it would take a LOT of time to dig up examples pertaining to this thread.
I used to believe all religions taught kindness. I used to tell people that all the time. Then I began majoring in religion. To use the buzz-religion of our generation, one only has to look at the religious violence against women of Islam to know that "kindness" is not always taught the way WE think it is.
Weyrcat
Mr Libby, I'm not sure I should attempt to justify myself to your post when you seem to have refused to read mine to find out what it's even about. I have no sore spot with God. I am an atheist. Not because "God hurt me" because there is no "God". No religion ever tried to wrong me. I began going to college for Religion and Psychology because I feel that Man is so moved by God that you cannot study Man's mind, history, or life, without studying how his religion influences that. Some humans have a physiological need for "God" (and there are some really interesting scientific studies that support this.) I DO have beef with "Christianity" because it is FALSE and all historical evidence suggests that it's a franken-myth of other myths, perpetuated by "Paul" who lived 200 years AFTER "Jesus" and therefore never met him. So many bits of Christianity is borrowed from older myths that it's obvious, if only the Christian is ALLOWED to learn them. This flat out rejection of learning anything that disagrees with an 1800 year old book that's been edited and revised and changed so many times (that any truth it once held is obscured, removed, or was never there) is DANGEROUS. The people who still try to "live by" this book IGNORE most of it. Read Leviticus and tell me how many Christians you know follow it. If inhumanity exists you can find it in BIBLE as a model of how to live.
If God exists and there is evidence for it, I will believe in him.
If the Bible is the proof of God, then there is no Proof because the Bible is false.
Morality is a social law found in the most simple tribes of humans who have never heard of Jesus or Abraham. Humans don't NEED GOD TO BE GOOD.
I cannot "make" a Christian disbelieve in something they have been indoctrinated into since birth, any more than a Christian can make me, a rational person who understands science and sociology and history and psychology, to believe in Santa Clause. (Who, by the way, is also a conglomeration of old myths.) :)
Alyssa...
"The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning ANY or NO religion may be practiced by the people and the law will not give religion to the people NOR keep it from them."...Wouldn't keeping religion out of schools be prohibiting the free exercise thereof? And doesn't it say "Nor keep it from them"?
Weyrcat
@Alyssa, You are CORRECT, which is why students are allowed to pray in school, and are allowed to create and attend Christian Groups and Prayer Meetings (which they do! At my high school the Christian Prayer Group met around the flag pole every Monday morning and said a prayer for the school. I thought it was very cool.)
What the amendment does is keeps your fourth grader's Hindu teacher from teaching your daughter about Vishnu, and your fifth grader's Satanist teacher from teaching your son about Satanism, et al.
Alyssa...
That's funny, my son just learned about Hinduism and Buddhism in his public school along with many other religions. It's important to learn about all faiths, even the lack of yours...Knowledge is key ;-)
Libby ...
ok so here's the deal, Jason Miriam's hub againI don't facebook because get bored with it fast, Libby my beuatiful wife says or demanded I read and respond. problem as I have stated before there is no way I am going to read all that and all the other posts. I only read this becuase I think it's fair to you. beyound that no worries, on responding to me. :). I am still right though you need to stop the ranting, I.E. very long post that no one reads. You will actualy get more ppl to hear what you have to say. alright you have fun.
Weyrcat
True. But I bet they didn't make them pray to them. I think learning about religion is great, in the context of history, as your son was. Just to be nitpicky, I don't have a "lack" of faith, anymore than you have a "lack" of belief in Sankt Nikolaus. ;)
Weyrcat
*Chuckle* I do apologize if my post is TL;DR for your wife, but it isn't a rant. History is not always a "one liner" and there were so many misconceptions in your wife's post that I felt she could benefit from the true story behind them. Now she can tell other people who feel the bra-burners were wrapped up in the free-love hippies that they were really modest women against the objectification of the female body!
Weyrcat
Patty, at this point I think it will make some of your friends feel better if I bow out. Everyone and anyone is free to continue this conversation (or any conversation, I LOVE intellectual debates and historical discussion) on my page or in my inbox, or even on my blog (www.weyrcat.com, the comments are open for all, as long as you have OpenID or any other login).
To all, it was most exciting to talk to you, and I did enjoy it. I hope you did too.
(Ms. Alyssa, you are a sharp cookie! I hope you encourage your children to fight and question the way you do! Cheers!)
Popped up in my Facebook stream, by a family member ("Patty"):
Weyrcat
I would like to refer you to the current threats of violence towards a girl named Jessica Ahlquist, who took her public school to court to uphold a Constitutional ruling that was being broken by the school. The threats of violence and words of pure hatred she receives are coming FROM CHRISTIANS WHO WANT GOD IN THAT SCHOOL. They've threatened her with beatings, claim GOD will RAPE her, and hope she dies a painful death. Schools are not the place to teach about God, Church is. School is the place to learn about history and math and science. Schools that have God in them do NOT TEACH those subjects. Keep God
in Church and OUT OF SCHOOLS.
http://morallowground.com/2012/01/28/atheist-teen-jessica-ahlquist-bombarded-with-death-rape-threats-over-cranston-high-school-west-prayer-banner-lawsuit/
Libby...
I am sorry, but if I recall correctly God was taken out of school some 40 years ago, and during that time the worst kids were doing was chewing gum..... within a decade of taking God out of schools, those students became adults and began burning bras, screaming for their 'freedoms', and causing riots across the nation. But, lets forget about the origin of country to begin with.
I am not though, for the record, affirming what those 'christians' are doing. There is no excuse for saying that God will rape her and praying she dies a painful death. however, I do agree, taking God out of schools, which had been there for a couple hundred of years, was a mistake and has changed the course of this country dramatically.
Alyssa...
@Patty, you are so right. @Weyrcat, the people who were threatening that girl, were obviously "not" Christians.
Weyrcat
"40 years ago" was 1972. The "bra burning", which didn't actually occur (they threw them in trash cans) happened in 1968. There were no riots over this "bra burning" thing. It was sensationalized by one reporter trying to liken it to the burning of draft cards.
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.asp
Also, the "bra burning" wasn't about rampant sexuality or freedoms et al. It was a protest over the 1968 Miss America beauty pageant. The women protesting held signs claiming "Let's judge ourselves as people" and rejected "beautification" objects such as high heels, cosmetics, girdles, etc. Surely a modest Christian woman, such as yourself, can agree with their motives. They wanted women to be WOMEN, not sexual objects paraded around in swimsuits on a stage.
Per "the origin of the country" I presume you mean this misconception that the "founding fathers" created a Christian nation. This comes from the fact that Puritans colonized the Eastern seaboard, seeking "regligious freedom" from the oppressive Church of England (who deemed their sect of Christianity a sin!) When the Constitution was drafted the word "God", "Jesus", "Creator", were (and are currently) NOT in it! *Excepting the date at the bottom, which was customarily written as "The Year of our Lord One thousand seven hundred and eighty seven" and was used both religiously and secularly. If the framers of the Constitution had been religious (and of a Christian religion) why would they put in that "[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"?
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#god
The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning ANY or NO religion may be practiced by the people and the law will not give religion to the people NOR keep it from them. This covered public schools, which is the place of education FOR ALL AMERICAN CHILDREN, not just children of Christian parents. Let's pretend we're England, who throughout history changed religions to match their ruler. Let's pretend Obama is Muslim. Now, the public schools YOU want God in will teach your children about Muhammad and Sharia and they will read from the Qu'ran during daily prayers. Still want God in school?
Forty years ago the country was neither "better" nor "worse" since we have NO real way to compare. We have better medicine, knowledge of science and health, life-saving technologies. PRIOR to 1970, in those "years before they took God out of school" you must remember we had HUGE periods where Blacks weren't considered human, the law looked the other way when men beat their wives (rampant as late as 1950s, bet they went to Church every Sunday too), and Japanese-Americans were held prisoner "just in case."
Before you try to use "history" to support your religious preference, read some history first.
@Alyssa, that's the problem, THEY ARE Christians. The bigger problem is that SCHOOL IS NOT CHRISTIAN. School is SECULAR. There are schools that have God in them, they're called Christian schools. People who want God in their child's school should send their child to a Christian school. Public schools are funded by the secular state and must REMAIN secular to ensure the privacy and freedoms of ALL the children present.
Patty ...
Okay, now that I have a minute to sit...never mind, baby cry!
Patty ...
Look Weyrcat. You got froggy and jumped on MY post.
You just ASSUMED that I am a Christian because of said post.
The facts as I see them is that NO ONE is teaching simple things like be kind, do not hate, do unto others, do not kill, do not steal, and honor your father and mother! IF these things were being taught, then Jessica A would NOT have been threatened in that manner. People did NOT used to shoot up schools, not that I know of. I would research it to be sure...but I don't have the time.
All I Do know, is that it would be nice if teachers had the latitude to give some guidance to direct our children to be nice to each other because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. All the major religions teach kindness. PERIOD
Alyssa...
@Jenna, anyone can call them selves a Christian. You have to live as one to actually be one, and those people have shown that they are obviously "Not" Christians.
Libby ...
lol you facebookers, This John Libby's hub, I have no Idea who would take the time to read all that, if you guys are going to try to argue and debate, try not to rant. writing longer post doesn't help you. Ok you tell me how many school shooting there have been since 1960-1998 and compare them to 1999-now, In America plz , no muslim countries I think they shoot one person per day for good measure. to keep the whole death to America thing going. And yeah We want GOD back at are schools. If you are going to have a good country then you need to go the the great sourse of good and that is GOD. All secular schools do is lead you to rejecting science and truth for insanity. Miramonte Elemetary school in L.A., for one example, failing schools over the decades, passing students just to get them out of there, gangs running amonk in school. Yes I would like GOD to be there thought there, prayed to there and every day be a reminder that we should strive for excellence. Beyound that, I just get from your post you been hurt somehow and the issue of GOD or ppl would promte GOD is touching that nerve. I hope you find some healing, and look to GOD to find it. Ok well I think I have fullfilled my Facebook of the year. lol, You guys have fun, oh yeah Miriam's at the store I'm sure she'll give you a responce later.
Weyrcat
I did presume you to be Christian, based on said image, however I fail to see how that matters. My response post illustrates "God" should not be in schools at all. If J.A. had petitioned at Muslim banner to be removed and the Muslim students upjumpedtheboogie on her I'd be just as disgusted, and it would still be a good opposition to the idea that there is violence in school because God is not.
Presuming you are Christian, based on said image, and because you are blood and I like to think I take care not to emotionally injure my kin, felt I was approaching the subject in deference to your presumed religion. Otherwise I may have just posted Spaghetti Monster rhetoric (YAY! PIRATES!)
Those ethics you've posted ARE instilled in students by teachers, and should also be by parents. Those aren't religious teachings, but basic humanity teachings. As a hopeful science teacher I know that teachers deliver those messages every day by living them (and by things as simple as "Don't take Johnny's pencil!" etc). School violence has unfortunately always occurred, only the methods and motives change throughout history, AND how well they are documented. And you're right, it would take a LOT of time to dig up examples pertaining to this thread.
I used to believe all religions taught kindness. I used to tell people that all the time. Then I began majoring in religion. To use the buzz-religion of our generation, one only has to look at the religious violence against women of Islam to know that "kindness" is not always taught the way WE think it is.
Weyrcat
Mr Libby, I'm not sure I should attempt to justify myself to your post when you seem to have refused to read mine to find out what it's even about. I have no sore spot with God. I am an atheist. Not because "God hurt me" because there is no "God". No religion ever tried to wrong me. I began going to college for Religion and Psychology because I feel that Man is so moved by God that you cannot study Man's mind, history, or life, without studying how his religion influences that. Some humans have a physiological need for "God" (and there are some really interesting scientific studies that support this.) I DO have beef with "Christianity" because it is FALSE and all historical evidence suggests that it's a franken-myth of other myths, perpetuated by "Paul" who lived 200 years AFTER "Jesus" and therefore never met him. So many bits of Christianity is borrowed from older myths that it's obvious, if only the Christian is ALLOWED to learn them. This flat out rejection of learning anything that disagrees with an 1800 year old book that's been edited and revised and changed so many times (that any truth it once held is obscured, removed, or was never there) is DANGEROUS. The people who still try to "live by" this book IGNORE most of it. Read Leviticus and tell me how many Christians you know follow it. If inhumanity exists you can find it in BIBLE as a model of how to live.
If God exists and there is evidence for it, I will believe in him.
If the Bible is the proof of God, then there is no Proof because the Bible is false.
Morality is a social law found in the most simple tribes of humans who have never heard of Jesus or Abraham. Humans don't NEED GOD TO BE GOOD.
I cannot "make" a Christian disbelieve in something they have been indoctrinated into since birth, any more than a Christian can make me, a rational person who understands science and sociology and history and psychology, to believe in Santa Clause. (Who, by the way, is also a conglomeration of old myths.) :)
Alyssa...
"The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning ANY or NO religion may be practiced by the people and the law will not give religion to the people NOR keep it from them."...Wouldn't keeping religion out of schools be prohibiting the free exercise thereof? And doesn't it say "Nor keep it from them"?
Weyrcat
@Alyssa, You are CORRECT, which is why students are allowed to pray in school, and are allowed to create and attend Christian Groups and Prayer Meetings (which they do! At my high school the Christian Prayer Group met around the flag pole every Monday morning and said a prayer for the school. I thought it was very cool.)
What the amendment does is keeps your fourth grader's Hindu teacher from teaching your daughter about Vishnu, and your fifth grader's Satanist teacher from teaching your son about Satanism, et al.
Alyssa...
That's funny, my son just learned about Hinduism and Buddhism in his public school along with many other religions. It's important to learn about all faiths, even the lack of yours...Knowledge is key ;-)
Libby ...
ok so here's the deal, Jason Miriam's hub againI don't facebook because get bored with it fast, Libby my beuatiful wife says or demanded I read and respond. problem as I have stated before there is no way I am going to read all that and all the other posts. I only read this becuase I think it's fair to you. beyound that no worries, on responding to me. :). I am still right though you need to stop the ranting, I.E. very long post that no one reads. You will actualy get more ppl to hear what you have to say. alright you have fun.
Weyrcat
True. But I bet they didn't make them pray to them. I think learning about religion is great, in the context of history, as your son was. Just to be nitpicky, I don't have a "lack" of faith, anymore than you have a "lack" of belief in Sankt Nikolaus. ;)
Weyrcat
*Chuckle* I do apologize if my post is TL;DR for your wife, but it isn't a rant. History is not always a "one liner" and there were so many misconceptions in your wife's post that I felt she could benefit from the true story behind them. Now she can tell other people who feel the bra-burners were wrapped up in the free-love hippies that they were really modest women against the objectification of the female body!
Weyrcat
Patty, at this point I think it will make some of your friends feel better if I bow out. Everyone and anyone is free to continue this conversation (or any conversation, I LOVE intellectual debates and historical discussion) on my page or in my inbox, or even on my blog (www.weyrcat.com, the comments are open for all, as long as you have OpenID or any other login).
To all, it was most exciting to talk to you, and I did enjoy it. I hope you did too.
(Ms. Alyssa, you are a sharp cookie! I hope you encourage your children to fight and question the way you do! Cheers!)
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